If your daughter was a BG?

[Shelby J]

What a stupid bloody question.

I have a niece which will more than likely end up in the bar profession, but so what!!!

 

[No Lie]

If you aren't raised in the Thai culture, it's not a valid question.

 

[Jack A]

Not too stupid a question, STEVE, but certainly a good debate starter.

I have no daughter and so can not comment,but could I just take this opportunity to point out that on sensitive topics as this the responses on this forum are such as would be put forward over a pint in a bar ie face-to face. If it were "the other" forum the posters would have taken this opportunity to slag each other off reassured that they are cosily protected behind a keyboard and miles of 'phone cable.

HNY

 

[loves james]

Not a true statement at all IMO..

Thailand does not have the same level of moral stigma associated with this kind of hospitality work.. I read soem acedemic papers (buggered if I have em linked) that discussed stigma and social roles, how it would effect future lives, how it would effect marriages, how much stigma there is.

The upshot of it was that being involved in the thai sex trades was percieved as not such a bad thing, and that it was a possible gateway out of the poverty via finding a rich man to be thier mistress (remember being a mia noi to a powerful man is a form of status here) or at least oving up the social ladder. Here in Thailand there is more stigma to being poor than there is to being an ex hooker.

As a western view we see that poverty is something that can be overcome and our dignity or morals are more important than the poverty, this society is only coming out of a feudal and fairly rigid caste system where people didnt change thier position in life easily.

How would I feel personally ?? Well I dont for one second think I would be happy about it.. However if the only options that I was able to provide for my offspring were between bar life, which with all of its problems does have some benefits, and the kind of grinding poverty that upcountry poor go through, a life of living in dirt and working 12 hour shifts for what a BG may make in 2 days for thier month, the option that perhaps the girl would find someone not too terrible to settle with, etc.. Well its a cold world and I dont know how much I would try to stop her.

Of course no father wants to think of his daughter working on her back, but (not being a father) I dont want to see my daughter up to her knees in a rice paddy for 100 baht a day, or slaving in a sweatshop either. Maybe my moral yardstick is a bit bent, that I can perhaps agree with, but looked at from purely lifestyle choices, and possible outcomes, escaping the poverty and changing thier life would be my desires.

 

[Pompal 09.]

I guess most people of all races and nationalties don't want their daughters to sleep with men for money and not love.

However what a parent should do is tell their kids no matter what yopu choose in life. BE THE BEST YOU CAN BE.

If your going to be a gogo dancer don't have a gut, go to the gym and work at your craft.
If your a BG be the best conversationalist, drinker, and sex partner.;

 

[Ashlei]

Exactly my point!!!!

 

[fcoleman43]

LOL.. Be all you can be..

Now polish that pole !!

 

[Gringa_uno]

Wasnt the title of this post a song in the "Fiddler on the Roof"? dee da deee de dee da deee. Oh by the way my flight leaves in 6 hours. better go pack. 2 singlet, 2 shorts, thongs done.....

 

[Nevaskard]

I am not critisizing Thai habits-culture.

You ask what I would do, if my daughter was?

I would eat the minimum I can. Begg in the streets. Steal from others, all but my daughter would NOT have to be a BG.

Now if one of my daughters, would do crazy things in Farang land, play in por* movies, I would be of course not happy either. But if it is their total free choice, I can only be sadned as a father, as it is their decission. Not to support me, which is not necessary.

 

[Gold Hat]

Of course as a father you would be saddened, of course as a father you would do anything you could do to financially assist your daughter so she didn't HAVE to choose this ocupation.

The real answer is you love your kids who ever and whereever you are from, you want them to make you proud to suceed in life and enjoy their life, but whatever they choose to do is ultimately out of your control, you will still love them just the same.

And as others have said do not judge or consider things that happen in another culture by using your own cultural standards and ideas.

 

[Brandi M]

Again not sure I agree Dodger, I tend to think that the hard lives makes people harder..

If they love thier kids so much how come they abandon them at the drop of a hat ?? Wifey, sister, and bro, literally abandoned by thier mother, local school teach came by after they hadnt been and found the 3 of them hungry. Wifey was about 8 or 9 with bro younger and sis older, mother had walked off about 3 days earlier. Can you think of any personal stories like that back home ?? Because I could think of at least 3 or 4 more here.

As said buddy now has adopted the brother in laws kids, wife walked off and hes too lazy to take care.. Someone had to step up so in goes the farang.

I know many many BG's whose connection to their kids is a once annual visit with the ex or someone..

I could also mention thier funerals.. Apart from some 3rd world wailing theres little softness that as westerners I would expect.. Kind of a resignation.

I dont know if its the hardship of life, the real scary poverty, or what.. But where I think we expect to do much more for our kids in terms of starting them out, here the kids are looked on as being indebted to the parent, have to support the parent, like breeding your own workforce. part of the sin sot paying off the family for the use of the daughter is also in there I reckon.

 

[Jane D]

That seems like the nail on the head to me. As a parent, you want more for your kids than you had; that's progress and evolution.

Thai people certainly have more reverence for parents and old people than is normal to us, maybe that's why? And maybe that's why so many Thai blokes are drunken, lazy wasters? The idea that once they have kids they don't have to work anymore because they have a workforce now?

 

[.:daisy:.]

Good reply..

So its okay for us to pick and choose what we think is moral dependant on where we are at the time? What might be acceptable in ones country/culture?

Is it okay for us to use BG's then knowing what we know about poverty, lack of education decent life chances for BG's?

MMmm sometimes I think too much..


Dodger

 

[Top_Gear_Biggest_Fan]

You have no right whatsoever to export your moral values, that's where all the screaming farang women come from in Thailand. The social model in your country will not be the same as the ones you visit. The differences may be surprising, but that's the nature of travel isn't it? Visiting places not the same as the one you come from.

Why are you picking and choosing what is moral? You are simply going along with what is accepted in the country you are visiting.

Is it ok to use bargirls? I'm not sure about your turn of phrase there, but it's up to you whether you see it as ok or not. The reality of their lives will still be there if you 'use' them or you don't.

 

[Dominic]

1/ You have no right to tell me what moral values I choose to export or not! Or do you think you have?

2/ Your correct social models are diffrent in diffrent countries I prefer the word societies to be honest, models is a bit la de da.. But the one thing that is constant in all societies is that they are populated by human beings.. Human beings who if you really dismiss much of the bullshit want to live their lifes in the best way they can without too much hardship or misfortune along the way.

3/The above I see as being inherent in all peoples at all times. Hence the question that I posed in the first instance How would you feel if your daughter was a bargirl?

4/ By simply going along with what is accepted in a country is only changing the reality to what you really think is ok for your and my own enjoyment..

5/ As for my turn of phrase how would you put it? Are we not using these girls to empty or sacks often getting all balls emptied with girls that if we are truly honest with ourselves given diffrent circumstances they would not look at us standing at the bustop..

MMmm

Realty of thier lifes is such because we make it that way.. We perpetuate the situation..

 

[tkp]

Islandboy you argue illogically and either do not understand what I and Steve wrote or choose to ignore it and just say something that makes you feel right.

I will explain again, you should not judge one countries peoples actions or practises based on your own country's practises. If you cannot accept that then you are stating that your country is right and all others that live or believe or act in any other way are wrong. Now please consider what I have written connected to the points it relates to, would not like to think you will waffle on about war or killings etc not to do with the points we are discussing.

I stated I would love my daughter what ever occupation she choose, I would like to be proud of her and would personally not want my daughter to do many types of job, however this too can be the point. Many Thai parents are proud of their daughter, they know what she does for a living but she is very successful, can help them financially and take care of them, this is very important in their culture. Not ours as we are brought up to value independence.

 

[Derek]

Sorry, I thought I was answering a question. To be clear, my belief is that you, me and everybody else who visits a country has no right to tell people how to behave. Maybe I should have said that moral values are not for one person to impose on another? Or maybe that you have no right to judge others by your moral standards/values. Take your pick



I guess you mean 'your'e' as in 'you are'? And you really seriously can't replace 'social model' with 'society', so I'm going to stick with it whether you find it la de da or not. If you think that we are all the same then you are not paying attention. One of the reasons we travel is to meet people who are not us.

I think that if you want to be understood clearly then you need to define what you mean by 'best'. Living their lives the best way they can without too much hardship appears to mean, to many Thai men, having a crack at drinking themselves to death whilst living off what their kids send home.





Inherent or not, the question is really not one that you, I or most of the other guys here can answer. We are not Thai, we don't think like they do and we don't have the same problems to address that they do.




You lost me



See, to my mind you are comparing apples and oranges. What you mean is that they would not look at us if they were living in our country and had no money worries. Well, the reality is that aren't and they have. Again, that's why we travel; to meet people who are not us.

This is actually a ridiculous line of reasoning, because we would all behave differently if we were in different situations.

I see it as no more than the buying and selling of a service. These girls are rarely coerced into the bar trade and they don't have pimps. I think that whether they are being 'used' or not depends a lot on the mindset of the customer.




I assume you mean reality? Yes we do perpetuate the situation, but that situation might be far preferable to the situation that they come from. Or far better than the situation that the really poor women who are traded across the borders to service the domestic market find themselves in.

How many of these bargirls lost their virginity to their brother, or their father? How many of them would have been traded across the border for 50,000 baht or exchanged for a pickup truck if they had not started bringing some cash in? Your idea of happy families may not exist.

Good luck with your moral crusade.

 

[MichealUllman]

Your really do have too much time on your hands I have never learned a single thing from somebody I agreed with good post!!

Steve

 

[Steve D]

I think this thread belongs in the bit bucket.

 

[virgod]

Trying to keep brief, if my daughter were a BG but she walked with her head held high, proud of the financial independance she had secured, didn't spunk the money on some scrounging, gambling, drug addict TB, then I wouldnt be unhappy for her, as long as I had done all I can to guide her in the right direction initially.
I would be pretty ashamed of myself if I had sold her into debt bondage, as Steve said, to finance a new pick-up or TV etc. just to keep up with the neighbours