Chat POLL & Discussion - should Canada have the right to bear arms (for self defense)?

[sy barite]

25 simple charts to show friends and family who aren't convinced racism is still a problem in America

Research has extensively documented the differences between the Black and white experience in the US, from wealth and education to incarceration.

www.businessinsider.com

Systemic Inequality: Displacement, Exclusion, and Segregation

The United States must reckon with the racism built into its housing system in order to ensure that all Americans have the opportunity to build wealth.

www.americanprogress.org

...and Nobel prizes are awarded from Sweden so it’s totally irrelevant to a narrative on systemic racism within the US

You either didn't understand the point I was making, or you didn't look at the charts you just shared. Maybe both. Your reaction to my example citing the Nobel prizes shows you might not have the capacity to understand.

I did not question that racial disparity exists. I absolutely agree it does. I even furnished some examples. But disparities are not proof of systemic racism.. Blacks are over represented in the NBA and track and field, is that proof of racism? Men are over represented in the plumbing trade and jails. Predujice?

You have not demonstrated how blacks being under represented in high paying jobs is proof of racism in any way, let alone of a systemic variety.

Let me make it even clearer, Universities in the U.S. have federal funding tied to racial quotas. That is, they get money if they fill a certain number of student and faculty spots with black people. This misguided policy is almost impossible for elite schools to meet in order to secure their funding. They have to go looking for candidates and in many cases they "fudge" the admission and employment requirements-awarding points for "life experience"- in order to get those black people into their institutions. Clearly, it's not racism at work there. The question is, why is it difficult to find those candidates, even when they have every reason to want them?

 

[Hornet]

You either didn't understand the point I was making, or you didn't look at the charts you just shared. Maybe both. Your reaction to my example citing the Nobel prizes shows you might not have the capacity to understand.

I did not question that racial disparity exists. I absolutely agree it does. I even furnished some examples. But disparities are not proof of systemic racism.. Blacks are over represented in the NBA and track and field, is that proof of racism? Men are over represented in the plumbing trade and jails. Predujice?

You have not demonstrated how blacks being under represented in high paying jobs is proof of racism in any way, let alone of a systemic variety.

Let me make it even clearer, Universities in the U.S. have federal funding tied to racial quotas. That is, they get money if they fill a certain number of student and faculty spots with black people. This misguided policy is almost impossible for elite schools to meet in order to secure their funding. They have to go looking for candidates and in many cases they "fudge" the admission and employment requirements-awarding points for "life experience"- in order to get those black people into their institutions. Clearly, it's not racism at work there. The question is, why is it difficult to find those candidates, even when they have every reason to want them?

The US has systemic racism that forces ethnic groups into communities that are segregated from each other. Whites don’t want to live next to blacks.

the US has a history of this with housing projects and real estate practises by denying blacks access to housing

A 'Forgotten History' Of How The U.S. Government Segregated America

Author Richard Rothstein says the housing programs begun under the New Deal were tantamount to a "state-sponsored system of segregation," in which people of color were purposely excluded from suburbs.

www.npr.org

Schools are funded from property taxes of their respective district. If you live in a wealthier neighborhood and pay more property taxes you get better schools and better education for your kids

Unequal School Funding in the United States - Educational Leadership

If you are a black youth growing up in a poor neighbourhood with poor schooling you don’t see the way out of poverty through studying. They often see the way out through sports (basketball or football) or music.

Survey: African-American youth more often play sports to chase college, pro dreams - Project Play

This article shares new insights on the sports experience for youth across racial subgroups, based on a national survey of sports parents by the Aspen Institute’s Project Play initiative and Utah State University’s Families in Sport Lab. The data show sharp differences in access, and in pressures ex

www.aspenprojectplay.org

College is expensive, so they want the free ride if they go and sports are the way to achieve it. That’s because, they can’t afford college otherwise. They don’t see the path to a middle class pay check to afford $100k in student debt. Your elite schools aren’t going to find a pool of black kids unless they are offering scholarships to them (usually in sport)

many blacks from these neighborhoods (some are violent ones) will end up with a poor education, little Employment prospects beyond minimum wage and stuck in poverty. If they feel their situation is desperate then they can turn to crime. A bleak situation will sustain itself

How America's Ugly History of Segregation Changed the Meaning of the Word 'Ghetto'

The linkage between Jews and “ghetto” began in the early 16th century

time.com

It’s all parts of a larger system to deny blacks the same opportunities as whites.

 

[LazyBoy]

A weapon in untrained hands is way more dangerous than in untrained hands. Who wants thousands of weapons in untrained hands out there??

Then, there is the willingness to use the weapon for its intended purpose. Unlike what you see in entertainment, a weapon's primary purpose is to kill. If you pull a gun on someone, you better be damned ready to put two bullets centre mass on your target. All that stuff about shooting in the arm or leg is bullshit. I certainly wouldn't want to be in a position where my gun was taken from me due to my hesitation and then used on me or my loved ones.

 

[LazyBoy]

I completed the gun safety course in Canada when I was 14 (earliest age you can take the course) and I owned my first rifle by age 15. One of my older brother's gave me his rifle as he didn't want it anymore. Eventually I gave it to one of my other brothers who currently owns 4 rifles I believe. One of my cousins use to have a cabinet that was made in the form of a wagon wheel and he had it full of rifles and I believe he owned two hand guns.

You may be able to tell I didn't grow up in the city, where I grew up getting your gun safety course was just one of those rites of passage just like getting your drivers license at 16 (back then there was no graduated licensing, you either had a license or you didn't) and then liquor ID at 19. It really wasn't a big deal, unless you were one of the ones who failed the course then you would be ridiculed by your peers. My friends and I use to go out hunting when we were that age which to some people I know in the city think it was mad that 14 year olds were carrying rifles and going hunting.

I was firing my first rifle when I was 13 and I lived in the city. Knowing how to use a gun and knowing about gun safety still isn't the same thing as "bearing arms". Heck, owning guns isn't the same thing as bearing arms. I have no issue with target shooting and though I don't like hunting I can understand it. Still not the same as bearing arms IMO. Bearing arms as an expression to me means BEING armed, and I certainly don't want to live in a world where people walk around armed.

Side note, I love shooting rifles. Shotguns are a different story as I never got the hang of managing the kick back. Would love to shoot a handgun one day though.

 

[Hornet]

I was firing my first rifle when I was 13 and I lived in the city. Knowing how to use a gun and knowing about gun safety still isn't the same thing as "bearing arms". Heck, owning guns isn't the same thing as bearing arms. I have no issue with target shooting and though I don't like hunting I can understand it. Still not the same as bearing arms IMO. Bearing arms as an expression to me means BEING armed, and I certainly don't want to live in a world where people walk around armed.

Side note, I love shooting rifles. Shotguns are a different story as I never got the hang of managing the kick back. Would love to shoot a handgun one day though.

Hunting as a means to provide food is fine. It’s a bit of a task to be picking birdshot out of the duck meat you are eating for dinner though. Venison (deer) is salty so it makes great sausage. I hate trophy hunters that get their jollies out of killing an animal for nothing though.

 

[EndingHappy]

25 simple charts to show friends and family who aren't convinced racism is still a problem in America

Research has extensively documented the differences between the Black and white experience in the US, from wealth and education to incarceration.

www.businessinsider.com

Systemic Inequality: Displacement, Exclusion, and Segregation

The United States must reckon with the racism built into its housing system in order to ensure that all Americans have the opportunity to build wealth.

www.americanprogress.org

...and Nobel prizes are awarded from Sweden so it’s totally irrelevant to a narrative on systemic racism within the US

imagine still thinking systemic racism exists in the West

 

[sy barite]

The US has systemic racism that forces ethnic groups into communities that are segregated from each other. Whites don’t want to live next to blacks.

the US has a history of this with housing projects and real estate practises by denying blacks access to housing

A 'Forgotten History' Of How The U.S. Government Segregated America

Author Richard Rothstein says the housing programs begun under the New Deal were tantamount to a "state-sponsored system of segregation," in which people of color were purposely excluded from suburbs.

www.npr.org

Schools are funded from property taxes of their respective district. If you live in a wealthier neighborhood and pay more property taxes you get better schools and better education for your kids

Unequal School Funding in the United States - Educational Leadership

If you are a black youth growing up in a poor neighbourhood with poor schooling you don’t see the way out of poverty through studying. They often see the way out through sports (basketball or football) or music.

Survey: African-American youth more often play sports to chase college, pro dreams - Project Play

This article shares new insights on the sports experience for youth across racial subgroups, based on a national survey of sports parents by the Aspen Institute’s Project Play initiative and Utah State University’s Families in Sport Lab. The data show sharp differences in access, and in pressures ex

www.aspenprojectplay.org

College is expensive, so they want the free ride if they go and sports are the way to achieve it. That’s because, they can’t afford college otherwise. They don’t see the path to a middle class pay check to afford $100k in student debt. Your elite schools aren’t going to find a pool of black kids unless they are offering scholarships to them (usually in sport)

many blacks from these neighborhoods (some are violent ones) will end up with a poor education, little Employment prospects beyond minimum wage and stuck in poverty. If they feel their situation is desperate then they can turn to crime. A bleak situation will sustain itself

How America's Ugly History of Segregation Changed the Meaning of the Word 'Ghetto'

The linkage between Jews and “ghetto” began in the early 16th century

time.com

It’s all parts of a larger system to deny blacks the same opportunities as whites.

You continue to evade the point I'm making. You are simply presenting evidence of different racial outcomes. Saying systemic racism exists because there are differences between racial groups proves nothing. Again, I can point to plenty of outcomes that vary according to race. Why do asians as a group tend to do better in school? Why do Kenyans dominate long distance running? When given absolute freedom to choose, why do women on average choose nurturing or "people" centered careers vs STEM fields?

Show me how ethnic groups "forced" to segregate from whites? Is there a law you can point to? What is the mechanism by which this is happening? If you can do that, I'm sure the majority of society would absolutely back getting rid of such a law. But it doesn't exist, and hasn't for about 60 years.

Please don't take this as a personal attack, but it's clear you haven't looked very deeply into this subject. If you did, you would find there are contradictions that expose the lie of systemic racism. Why is black home ownership in the U.S. the lowest now since the 50s? Are we more racist now than we were then? Why do black immigrants to the U.S. consistently economically outperform native African Americans whose families have been here for generations? Are the immigrants not subject to the same "systemic racism"?

 

[sy barite]

imagine still thinking systemic racism exists in the West

It's an emperor's clothes situation. You have to think for yourself a bit.

 

[OG_funguy]

You continue to evade the point I'm making. You are simply presenting evidence of different racial outcomes. Saying systemic racism exists because there are differences between racial groups proves nothing. Again, I can point to plenty of outcomes that vary according to race. Why do asians as a group tend to do better in school? Why do Kenyans dominate long distance running? When given absolute freedom to choose, why do women on average choose nurturing or "people" centered careers vs STEM fields?

Show me how ethnic groups "forced" to segregate from whites? Is there a law you can point to? What is the mechanism by which this is happening? If you can do that, I'm sure the majority of society would absolutely back getting rid of such a law. But it doesn't exist, and hasn't for about 60 years.

Please don't take this as a personal attack, but it's clear you haven't looked very deeply into this subject. If you did, you would find there are contradictions that expose the lie of systemic racism. Why is black home ownership in the U.S. the lowest now since the 50s? Are we more racist now than we were then? Why do black immigrants to the U.S. consistently economically outperform native African Americans whose families have been here for generations? Are the immigrants not subject to the same "systemic racism"?

You guys both have good points. I lean towards your line of thinking but I kinda get some of his points too... chicken and egg thing.

 

[sy barite]

You guys both have good points. I lean towards your line of thinking but I kinda get some of his points too... chicken and egg thing.

I think what makes people feel "stuck" is that they confuse the argument I'm making with a claim that there's no racism. That isn't what I'm saying. Of course racism still does exist, we so too much of it in life and in this forum for that matter. But the argument for the existence of "systemic" racism is a bad one. The strongest proponents for its existence can't even define it. In fact recently, there was a CBC host who declared that a sure fire way you know you're dealing with a racist is if they ask you to define what systemic racism is. With an attitude like that, discussion is difficult.

 

[OG_funguy]

I think what makes people feel "stuck" is that they confuse the argument I'm making with a claim that there's no racism. That isn't what I'm saying. Of course racism still does exist, we so too much of it in life and in this forum for that matter. But the argument for the existence of "systemic" racism is a bad one. The strongest proponents for its existence can't even define it. In fact recently, there was a CBC host who declared that a sure fire way you know you're dealing with a racist is if they ask you to define what systemic racism is. With an attitude like that, discussion is difficult.

Maybe you guys have different interpretations for "systemic"? How do you define it?

 

[sy barite]

It is not difficult to define, because we had it. Jim Crow laws whereby people could not drink from the same water fountains, join the same clubs, live in certain part of town, even get hired for jobs. Until those laws were repealed, many jurisdictions in the U.S. allowed discrimination based on race. That does not exist any longer. It was systemic racism, built into the system of institutions and governments.

I don't want to speak for the other side, but usually what you get from them if you ask them for a a definition of systemic racism is something like what Hornet has been providing--examples of different outcomes by race. Racism may certainly be a factor in those examples--I've never denied that--but it is not systemic and built into any law or organization. We live in a time where that has (thank goodness), been made illegal. Though racism can be a factor in different outcomes for race, I maintain it is not anything like the dominant factor any longer and has not been for decades at this point. There are other very good reasons for why the black population is not progressing as quickly as other groups. Those genuinely interested in this, should listen or read to the work of people like Shelby Steele, John McWhorter, Coleman Hughes and of course, Thomas Sowell.

 

[MrBnH]

Just like the title says - would you be supportive of bearing arms in Canada? Why or why not?

Take poll at top of thread...must vote to see results (poll is anonymous).

View attachment 139856

We ALREADY have the right, nobody said we didn't ???

 

[OG_funguy]

We ALREADY have the right, nobody said we didn't ???

We do? Anyways, in case it wasn't clear, I meant carrying firearms in public for self defense purposes (like they do in some states)...

 

[OG_funguy]

It is not difficult to define, because we had it. Jim Crow laws whereby people could not drink from the same water fountains, join the same clubs, live in certain part of town, even get hired for jobs. Until those laws were repealed, many jurisdictions in the U.S. allowed discrimination based on race. That does not exist any longer. It was systemic racism, built into the system of institutions and governments.

I don't want to speak for the other side, but usually what you get from them if you ask them for a a definition of systemic racism is something like what Hornet has been providing--examples of different outcomes by race. Racism may certainly be a factor in those examples--I've never denied that--but it is not systemic and built into any law or organization. We live in a time where that has (thank goodness), been made illegal. Though racism can be a factor in different outcomes for race, I maintain it is not anything like the dominant factor any longer and has not been for decades at this point. There are other very good reasons for why the black population is not progressing as quickly as other groups. Those genuinely interested in this, should listen or read to the work of people like Shelby Steele, John McWhorter, Coleman Hughes and of course, Thomas Sowell.

Ok, so that's how you view it...others may view it differently. Regardless, I do think there's confusion around it.

What is systemic racism, anyway?

Systemic racism needs to be clearly defined since there is so much uncertainty and confusion about what the term really means.

www.usatoday.com

Flare

Re-imagine solar.

www.flare.com

 

[sy barite]

Ok, so that's how you view it...others may view it differently. Regardless, I do think there's confusion around it.

What is systemic racism, anyway?

Systemic racism needs to be clearly defined since there is so much uncertainty and confusion about what the term really means.

www.usatoday.com

Flare

Re-imagine solar.

www.flare.com

Thank you for sharing those articles. The arguments in them are quite familiar to me.

I believe in steel manning an opposing argument. That means critiquing an argument in its strongest form, not its weakest. The strongest form of the argument for systemic racism posits-- as your article says-- a "racist society" without conscious racists. That is a horrible idea. When you separate racism from conscious will, you take away all meaning from the concept and more importantly, all individual responsibility. People repeat the phrase "systemic racism without reflecting, but I think they're actuall thinking of endemic racism. Of course that exists, more in some segments of society than others. The difference is a big one. Racism is in people, not nebulous institutions

 

[Hangdai]

The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun, is with a good guy with a gun.

Legal permits to carry handguns in public? Yikes! Scary thought.

Home protection? I thought everyone already had their $200 SKS under their beds, or at least a short barrelled 12 gauge.

 

[Toucan]

I love guns as a sport in a safe firing range and well regulated, but fuck the right to bear arms. This thinking is rooted in the notion of the law of retaliation, or more commonly known as "an eye for an eye".

This is savage as it is primal. And you Neanderthals who are in favor of it are barbarous as you are obscene.

 

[sy barite]

For those wishing to embrace their inner Neanderthal.

 

[imthedude]

The US has systemic racism that forces ethnic groups into communities that are segregated from each other. Whites don’t want to live next to blacks.

the US has a history of this with housing projects and real estate practises by denying blacks access to housing

A 'Forgotten History' Of How The U.S. Government Segregated America

Author Richard Rothstein says the housing programs begun under the New Deal were tantamount to a "state-sponsored system of segregation," in which people of color were purposely excluded from suburbs.

www.npr.org

Schools are funded from property taxes of their respective district. If you live in a wealthier neighborhood and pay more property taxes you get better schools and better education for your kids

Unequal School Funding in the United States - Educational Leadership

If you are a black youth growing up in a poor neighbourhood with poor schooling you don’t see the way out of poverty through studying. They often see the way out through sports (basketball or football) or music.

Survey: African-American youth more often play sports to chase college, pro dreams - Project Play

This article shares new insights on the sports experience for youth across racial subgroups, based on a national survey of sports parents by the Aspen Institute’s Project Play initiative and Utah State University’s Families in Sport Lab. The data show sharp differences in access, and in pressures ex

www.aspenprojectplay.org

College is expensive, so they want the free ride if they go and sports are the way to achieve it. That’s because, they can’t afford college otherwise. They don’t see the path to a middle class pay check to afford $100k in student debt. Your elite schools aren’t going to find a pool of black kids unless they are offering scholarships to them (usually in sport)

many blacks from these neighborhoods (some are violent ones) will end up with a poor education, little Employment prospects beyond minimum wage and stuck in poverty. If they feel their situation is desperate then they can turn to crime. A bleak situation will sustain itself

How America's Ugly History of Segregation Changed the Meaning of the Word 'Ghetto'

The linkage between Jews and “ghetto” began in the early 16th century

time.com

It’s all parts of a larger system to deny blacks the same opportunities as whites.

sy barite is not worth arguing with, he is incapable of having good faith discussions.