Buzzkill in TJ This Weekend

[Pompal 09.]

Darius, Killit and Fireballs. Thanks for your responses and opinions. Most of us agree that zona is relatively dangerous place just as it should be like in most big cities and considering the business it is in.
Fireballs makes a convincing arguments dissecting the details as usual. I will let Burt respond to "allegations" about his behaviour if he chooses to. I think most of us mongers on this board make our own opinions based on the postings and the authors, while some may be exaggerated or distorted unfortunately, I think most of us are smart enough to understand that. Now if someone came with outrageously exaggerated report, we have our "forum police" like Fireballs, Burt, Darius, Killit et all to fix it

 

[Megs]

Bohemian wrote:

Let me set the record straright here because Bohemian seems a little confused what the debate is about as it's larger then just this trip report, I don't blame Bohemian as it's hard to follow and things are coming from at least two fourms. Regarding Bohemian's questions, we don't agree on many of them, but I thank Bohemian for trying to calm this thread down.

I would disagree with you Bohemian that I'm the daredevil, and Burt's the voice of caution. Maybe in the bedroom I'm the daredevil, but really outside in the streets and in the bars I'm very calm, keep to myself, and cause no trouble. At times I have been known to drink too much, but when I do I'm always with others, oh yeah, I may also pop a ED pill while drinking, and walk on ART 123, but that's the extent of me being a daredevil.

Burt on the other hand, talks about being very very cautious with a long laudry list of rules to follow when in TJ as if you are traveling to the most dangerous city in the world. But once in TJ Burt goes into a fighting mood, and can be very rude according to at least one of his friends who witnessed Burt letting loose on a taxi cab who tried to charge him too much, he has gotten into it with pharmacy clerks, meseros, and even bar girls who he feels is getting the best of him, it's one of the reasons why he prefers 'escorts.
Burt adocates refusing TJ cops from searching you, and to demand a search warrent and to see the cop's boss! You could almost say Burt looks forwards to these confrontations? Burt is more trusting them me, and hangs out with people he sometimes meets from this site, so no Bohemian you have it backwards I'm not the daredevil, Burt is.

BTW Bohemian this debate isn't only about this thread and trip report. Burt seems to believe almost all trip reports, and if it's in the media, that makes it especially true. I on the other hand demiss around 70% of reports of either being made up or second hand reports. If it's in the Newspapers, I'll doubt some of those reports especially if they are over-the-top. I don't see prostituion sites as reference material, but rather entertainment mixed in with some good recommendations.



I would tend to agree with you Bohemian, but rather just say it's a second hand report. Burt doesn't give his opinion, but gives his opinion through others, C-Diddy, believes it's possiible, as he too witnessed it, C-Diddy, hangs out at AB all the time.




Remember we are only talking about the small stretch on Articulo 123, about a 150 yards between REVO and Constitution where the majority of mongers walk down to the zona. No I don't consider that area dangerous at all as it's packed with people all hours of the day and night. The only danger I see is a cop may stop and question you, but the likeyhood of getting put in a chokehold in front of all those people is very low. Now if you want to compare it to the street AB is on and the alley, Ok it's more dangerous, but really those streets all three of them are nothing to be concerned about.



When you put it that way I have no choice but agree with you Bohemian. Like you I had almost no problems in the zona, and that's the way people usually look at things, by what happened to them or their friends. If you stay in the zona, take cabs back to the border, you should have no problems in TJ. Tijuana is a large city and like all large cities it has it's crime too, just like San Diego. I for one would never say avoid San Diego based on articles or second hand reports, so I feel the same way about TJ.

 

[Pompal 09.]

Articulo 123 is it bad? No I personal think its overrated.I think that one monger actually gotten robbed there.But like all things on the net Everybody joins the club and agrees that its the dangers street in TJ.(Knowing have the mongers never been in a bad area in there life.) The stories are to far out to belive. I posted some in a thread months ago.I actually think that 98.9% of people on these sites people make false trip reports or legit one but add some shit like i gotten robbed to spice up there report from others.

 

[momof3granof1]

Not tipping and not tipping people who try to scam you are two very different things. Actually I'm a decent tipper--as I posted I have a practice of tipping libres that use their meters as I want to encourage honest behavior just as I want to discourage dishonest behavior.

And, yes, by habbits have been greatly influenced by living in Tijuana. You're right that tipping a couple of extra bucks adds up when you take several cabs a day. But I still follow my practice of tipping libres that use a meter.

BTW, for those who don't know the local customs: tipping a cab isn't something locals do. It isn't even something that cab drivers outside the tourist areas expect gringos to do.

 

[blackroses4uever]

A couple of Burt's rules :

Here is a couple of Burt's rules he claims he lives by and recommends we follow. However, it's plain to be Burt breaks his own rules. His friend Ea$y tells us Burt alerted him he is carrying category IV drugs, however, Burt broke this rule when he wanted to put Ea$y his friend in harms way in order to fight and argue with the taxi driver and the TJ cops over $2 dollars.

Ready to go off on anybody in TJ you perceive is out to cheat you, and not necessarily true, is in my opinion an 'ugly American.' and a really bad tipper. It gives us Americans a bad name. The only people Burt treats well is escorts, as he says it's OK to bargain with SGs and BGs, but it's considered bad manners to bargain with escorts.

Burt that's kind of an unfair question to ask me, " Show me one person who has said "I want to see the judge" that the cops didn't let go?"
Of course the cops aren't going to take him to see the judge because carrying around Viagra isn't illegal, but that's not going to stop them from searching you and demanding a bribe, you are still putting your buddy in harms ways, as your friend was concerned about his couple of hundred dollars in cash he had. However, Burt you say category IV medicine is illegal, and you are breaking the law, so I ask you again why did you want to put your friend in harms way, and throw your own rules out the window?

The thing about you Burt is you consider only your own feelings and mongering style. I"m not sure if you still live in Tijuana, but I know Sampson does, and if he wants to fight it out with the cops, and taxi drivers that's fine as nickels and dimes add up, but not everybody lives in TJ. Most guys are lucky to go to TJ every few months or so, and some of them are married. It's not a big deal for them to pay $ 2 dollars more for a taxi, and they are not willing to risk their marriage or jobs to fight TJ cops over a small bribe they are asking for. Burt you have to think beyond yourself and realize not everybody is like you, and want Mexicans to respect them like fellow Mexicans. Hell, they take advaneforum.xxxe of me sometimes, big deal.....the fact is I'm not a Mexican national, and if I'm not, you also will never be Burt, you always will be treated a little different....get use to it.

BTW there are about four of us who got caught outside the zona with a provider, and the TJ cops got a bribe from everyone of us. The first guy I could think of was an very experience mongers, a GFE machine as he use to call himself, he was a tough guy too, once even threatening to hit Burt over the head with a beer bottle! Melonbag, was another very experience monger, he is on this site, maybe he'll tell us what happened. I was another one, who paid the cops off, and I forgot the fourth guy. Sampson also had yellow cabs circling one of his clients, and I know that's not fun. So yes doing escorts outside the zona is a little more dangerous then going to AB, C'mon Burt admit that?

Getting tanked! While maybe on occasion, but really it was when I was riding with my alcoholic buddy, but he doesn't hang with me anymore, so rarely do I drink too much anymore, and by the time I leave TJ, I'm not drunk at all.

Talking about dating Trannies, getting a little personal aren't we? Well I have no secrets here anybody is welcome to pull up my old quotes on the subject.
But since we are getting personal Burt I'll put up my record of shakedown costs to TJ police, lets see $ 40 dollars, one time, and I'll add my son's $10 dollars, so that's $50 dollars total.....not bad for all the years in TJ.

Now Burt it's your turn how much have you given the TJ cops over the years in bribes? C' mon we have no secrets here...let us know so Bohemian knows who is the real daredevil is?

 

[Sacha Redux]

Bohemian, thanks for dragging us back on track, although I agree Burt and Fireballs are keen debaters and I enjoy there back and forth. I know I don't have the mental energy to put into these kind of discussions.

If you just want opinions on the points here are mine.

1. The attack in front of Adelitas on the way to get a cab, hard to believe in my opinion. Not calling anyone a liar, just wondering if it is true if the facts aren't a little different. The color details of selling your watch for a cab ride and then having the ICE agents asked if you were robbed by Mexican police reduce it's believability.

2. Articulo 123 is a dangerous street? I tend to be a bit more vigilant on this street in general, but I don't avoid it, I usually traverse it a couple time each trip, sometimes I stop at one of the chicken shacks or in one of the little bars.

3. Zona in general is a dangerous place. It has a lot of bad people in it, no doubt. I think you have to be careful but armed or strong arm robbery is not that common. I do believe reports of people who have been mugged there and I certainly feel sympathetic, but out of dozens of trips I've never had a problem.

The cops are the biggest problem in my opinion, at least in TJ. If anything is keeping Americans away it is stories about corrupt cops. I've had several run ins with corrupt cops and so have my friends. That said the biggest it has ever cost me was $20.

 

[www.tarotpack.com]

Wow guys Burt and Fireballs, you sure have "indulged" in some debate here, while I was gone in the cold Wisconsin Greenbay area over Thanksgiving ! Let me be the "defacto" Moderator a la Larry King if you may
Reading the various posts on this thread, let says Burt is the "voice of caution" and Fireballs is the "voice of daredevil" ? Both of you do match up very well I must say . Very interesting posts though some issues got mixed up, and we dont know now what we are debating about. Thanks to that Mr Dangeroso for starting up this thing ! we do need some heated debates ! Ad Hominem or whatever that is called should be kept to the minimum. What issues do we have here :
1. The attack in front of Adelitas. Possible though not plausible ? Do you guys agree ?
2. Articulo 123 is a dangerous street, though not as dangerous as sometimes made out to be ? Agree ?
3. Zona in general is a dangerous place. I think everyone agrees on this. The extent of danger might be debatable, but you do agree that where there is prositituion, drugs and alcohol involved, danger cant be far behind ?

 

[vikki94]

Bohemian is right. Fireballs is a daredevil and I'm a calm, rational teetotaler.

On the few occasions I’ve been stopped by the cops I’ve refused to pay a bribe—and they've either let me go or given me the ticket I requested. Also, I don’t cave in when a taxista, merero, etc. tries to scam me. That’s the behavior of a man who doesn’t like getting shakendown or scammed—not the behavior of a daredevil. (If it was going to get me into trouble I wouldn't do it.)

When Fireballs goes to the Zona he normally gets “tanked.” That’s dangerous behavior; the more you drink the more likely you are to have problems in TJ. In contrast, I play it safe and don’t drink in TJ.

One of the things Fireballs and I agree upon is the skill with which trannies can pick a pocket. He and I also agree about trannies being more dangerous than cops.

Fireballs dates trannies. Not me. If the cops don’t get your wallet the trannies will. (Cops don't like homosexuals/bisexuals and regularly arrest them and/or shake them down--as Fireballs knows well through first hand experience. Trannies are world-class champion pickpockets.) Dating trannies also puts him at an increased risk for contracting AIDS. IMHO dating trannies in and of itself qualifies Fireballs for the daredevil label.

Fireballs is a real daredevil. Not me

 

[Nadja]

If you want to get fleeced that's your business. But I don't think it a good policy to advocate that others should adopt an "it's OK to scam me" mentality.

 

[Antithesis]

We are in agreement that the cops "will fuck with you over having Viagra." We are not in agreement about the dangers.

Show me one person who has said "I want to see the judge" that the cops didn't let go. Furthermore, as I recall you're, on record as saying the cops will probably let a man go who insists of seeing the judge.

 

[bodacioius baby]

Burt take it easy it's only my opinions I'm giving, yours is welcome too. I'm I'm still waiting for your opinion on this thread, what do you think of ElDangeroso well written trip report that sure of hell got more responses then the other ones around here.

I'm just a probing type kind of guy, and not going to believe many of the news stories out there, especially when they are going to come from one lady who has a job on reporting on border violence. But just so you know I sent Anna Cearley a email and questioned her myself, nicely, told her who we were, and that the guys from the sites are interested in her doing a story about the taxi sentri shakedowns by the police.

Regarding my ad hominem attack on Tom. First of all Tom isn't even a member here, Second, the post you put over here is a 'ad hominem' attack on me. Third, Burt if you wish to attack my writings, or engage in 'ad hominem' attacks, you should do it yourself, and not bring Tom into it.

Since Tom isn't a member here, I felt it was important to let the readers know what kind of guy this Tom is, and from my point of view.....Tom is OFF THE CHARTS! And no Burt I don't consider you racist like I may consider Tom. With you I think you just have a badly framed American point of view looking at Mexico, and it's people. It's not that I have a anti American bias, as I am American too, it's just I see a lot of anti-Mexican bias on forums, especially the one your from, not this one. What I do is when I see a statement like Mexicans are so racist, I'll write something like America is on the the most racist nations on earth! That usually is all it takes to get them going, but really I don't like to engage in those types of discussions as I belief everybody has racism in them to a certain degree.

Back to Tom, since he isn't a member here, I believe Tom is the banned Dermdoc, racist guy that use to post beautiful pictures of the Mexican chicas, the weird thing is he use to make them also wear a Miss Mexico Banner, and sometimes wear a sombrero, as if he captured these chicas.

Here is what one of your writerers wrote about Demdoc, who may be Tom now, and if it's not Tom, at least they get to see the type of guys that come on your prostitution site Burt, and why I act like I do sometimes:

 

[Buy]

Chauvinism:
1. Militant opposition to and fanatical denigration of a country, race, group, or kind.
2. Militant devotion to and fanatical glorification of a country, race, group, or kind.
3. Prejudiced belief in the superiority or inferiority of a country, race, group, or kind.

-----------------------

For a German to deny the existence of the holocaust is chauvinist.

For a Catholic to deny the horrors of the Spanish Inquisition is chauvinist.

For a Southerner to deny the existence of the misery in which slaves lived is chauvinist.

For an American to deny that racism exists in the United States is chauvinist.

For a Mexican or Mexican-American to deny the existence and/or severity of police corruption and extortion in Baja California is chauvinist.

There is much to admire about Mexico, just as there is much to admire about the Mexican people. Both—like all land and peoples—also have their shortcomings.

Pointing out problems that exist in Mexico does not make a person a racist. But failure to acknowledge the existence of those problems does make a person a chauvinist.

 

[amanda please]

This is standard newbie thinking but the cops in TJ are not like the cops in the US. If you knew one-fourth as much as you claim to know about TJ then you’d know better than to project US police tactics onto the cops in TJ.


I’ve never read such a report. Also, I know how good your memory is. It’s hard for me to believe that if this was a practice of the TJ cops wouldn’t be able to dig up quotes about it—just like you did the post Ea$y made several years ago.


True. But my experience is politely but firmly standing up to the cops just isn't dangerous. Been there, done that.

I'm basing my advice on first hand experience, which IMHO is far more accurate than the hearsay accounts you posted about above. I'd bet a date with an escort that if I could question the guys who claim to have problems with the cops I'd find the stories are false, greatly exaggerated, or lacking in important information (like they were in possession of controlled substances, weapons, etc.

 

[sasuke]

Me thinks thou doeth protest too much.

 

[box of chocolate]

Burt wrote:

Burt your on record telling everybody that Category IV medications is technically illegal in Tijuana, and that everyone should get a RX prescription from a Mexican doctor before buying Viagra or taking it while in the pharmacy. Now I don't think it's illegal in Tijuana, but both of us are in agreement legal or not, TJ cops will fuck with you over having Viagra or category IV medicines. You knew it was dangerous to carry, as you even warned you buddy Ea$y that you had BP medicine with you and still you wanted to face the hostility of the TJ cops over $ 2 dollars. Simply Amazing!

I wrote:


Burt wrote:

This is a tactic that US police use when they catch you in a red light district, I was subject to this a few times, after being caught with a street Ho in the US a few times. TJ cops have been known to threaten to call your wife or job too, it was in a recent report some place, and at least one TJ cops always knows English. I personally know of one guy who paid a bribe to one TJ cop $100 dollars, and two minutes later another TJ cops wanted the same thing, and my buddy told that cop to FUCK OFF! They took him to jail and he missed worked, a no call no show, guys get fired for that, but he told his boss what happened, and everybody had a good laugh, and they didn't fire him, he had a girlfriend at the time, I don't recall what he told her, nor if he was carry drugs or anything, I think he was just a little drunk?

There are also reports very bad article about women getting raped and guy getting beat when they don't come up with the money the TJ police want, and I understand girls still get raped even if they do come up with the money. Now I don't believe all these stories but you do Burt?

I would say it's best to avoid the TJ cops if possible, they are not your friend.

 

[Cali]

burt,

How logical is it to tie up yourself AND your buddy for an unknown quantity of time over a $2 rip-off??? How discourteous of you towards your buddy, who got caught up in the trouble you were causing.

Even if it held the both of you up for only 5 minutes each (and we both know it had the potential to get dragged out for hours and/or much more of ea$y's dollars) was it worth it? What is ea$y's time worth? (I'll give you a hint...MORE THAN $2!!!)

We've met before on several ocassions burt.
But I'm glad we don't monger together.
You sound like a big liability and a big waste of time.

 

[Frank.[=]

Fireballs…you’re an intelligent man and a good debater. Believe it or not, it saddens me to see you use “cheap shots.”

One is the use of ad hominem arguments where you personally attack your opponent, instead of you opponents argument.

I quoted Tom who said:

As I posted above, I’m not especially happy with how Tom worded his agreement about your being “anti-American/pro-Mexican.” However, the main thrust of his argument is correct: your anti-American/pro-Mexican basis causes you to negate the problem of police corruption/extortion in Baja.

You do not respond with arguments that police corruption/extortion in Baja isn’t a serious problem. Instead you respond by calling Tom a racist—a clasic example of an ad hominem argument:


You also call me “Tom’s buddy.” The obvious reason is to discrete me as also being racist.

I don’t even know Tom. In the same post on TJA I also quote you. Does that also make me an “agent for the Mexican Ministry of Propaganda?”

The truth or falsehood of a statement is independent of the speaker.

Suppose Tom is a racist. Suppose that Tom says, “The sun rises in the east.” According to your “train of logic” that statement must be false.

Fireballs…You really do yourself a disservice when you resort to such arguments.

 

[TEL BOY]

On the contrary, I think you are lacking in common sense. And that you aren’t thinking logically.

To me common sense and logic say the best way predict what a cop is going to do is based on what cops have done it the past.

So let’s look at what cops do:
--You posted about 8 encounters with the cops where they got “nada” from you because you won’t pay up
--You also posted about an incident where you clearly broke the law because you were driving without a DL. But you refused to pay a bribe and when the cops learned you weren’t going to cough up any money the let you go.

So why do you think if the cops found me carrying BP meds they won’t let me go if I refuse to pay a bribe?

BP meds—like ED meds—are Category IV medications. If you’re right that a Rx isn’t needed to buy ED meds then what law did I break by possessing BP meds without a Rx? And if I’m right it’s a technical violation of a law that is no longer enforced.

In either case, driving without a DL is far more serious than possessing Category IV medications without a Rx. Having your car impounded is nothing compared to a fine that ranges between $45.00 and $135.00. For the record I also note that there isn’t a single report of somebody stopped for carrying Category IV medications that wasn’t released after asking to see a judge.

Logic and common sense tell me that if cops let you go for driving without a DL they’d let me go for possession of BP meds without a Rx.

 

[Lee]

Burt I'm not sure if your supporting ElDangeroso trip report or not? I certainly hope you are as I'm sure it would mean a lot to ElDangeroso that such an esteemed monger such as yourself would at least give him plausible support; don't hide behind other posts.....just give your opinion Burt?

I feel a little bad for bringing my doubts out in the open as ElDangeroso from his posts seems like a nice guy and very good writer, but at the end of the day, I can't believe what his FRIEND told him, as I believe it's virtually impossible to get mugged right outside of AB. Although TJ could be dangerous, I don't think it's a good idea to be telling people you could be mugged right outside AB, on a Saturday night, as another poster said, is like Grand station central in New York, it's that packed!

Regarding Articulo 123 I think it was you Burt that said that street was one of the most dangerous streets in Tijuana period. You were not only comparing it to the streets mongers use, Revolucion, Coahuila, and the alley. You are changing your tune, but I'd agree with you if your only comparing it to those three streets only. So I guess you'll join me Burt in saying comparing ART 123 to the rest of the Tijuana streets, that ART 123 is relatively safe and mongers aren't in great danger walking the street as it's always packed with people.( only talking the small streach from Revolution to Constitution)

I'm shocked Burt brings up his buddy Tom on this site! The guy goes racial in just about every other post, and twice brought up the superiority of whites over blacks, citing racial science. He claims Mexicans hate him, and once wrote how walking in Santa Monica Ca, two Mexicans were pissing on the wall and turned to him with dick in hand and insulted him! According to Tom he isn't a racist, but Mexicans are the racist.Tom's a real winner, I'm surprised Burt would bring him up!

 

[A H]

Fireballs posted about this account on another board. (In fairness I should add that many, but not all, agreed with him.) Below is one of the responses I found interesting:


My experience is that Fireballs seldom if ever finds a report of a mugging believable.

On this board (as well as other boards) Fireballs and I have disagreed on various subjects. Including the safety of Articulo 123 (particularly the section between Revolucion and Constitucion).

I maintain that Articulo 123 is among the most dangerous places for mongers in TJ. (I’m comparing Articulo 123 to places like Revolucion, Coahuila, etc. not to places like Detriot. I suggest that when possible mongers take an alternate route and avoid Articulo 123.) Fireballs disagrees.

In our discussion on this board I listed 20 examples of problems on Articulo 123, many of which come from TJ vets. His response was “90% of those out stories don't pass the muster if you look at them closely, they are not timely, they lack emotion…”.

I think the above poster was perhaps too “harsh.” Still I think he is right that Fireballs:
--wants to make it look Americans falsely accuse Mexicans of crimes and other ill behavior
--has a very decided anti-American/Pro-Mexican bias

As I said, my experience is that Fireballs seldom if ever finds a report of a mugging believable. IMHO far more reports of muggings in Baja are true than false.