TJ Cops are the scumbags and getting worse

[OMG seeds!]

Burt - "Jeremy...you're half right. A search warrent isn't needed when you return to the US. However, it is needed even if you are in the proximity of the border if you haven't crossed the border. This, however, is not relevent to what happened as I wasn't near the border.

I was on a highway several miles from the border; I was headed towards Mexico and was not re-entering the US. A warrant was needed to search my car without my permission and probable cause was needed to stop me."

Burt, I don't mean to split hairs but "probable cause" isn't the standard to stop a vehicle, I believe "modicum of suspicion" is the standard which is considered something slightly less than "probable cause". Once stopped though I agree that "probable cause" is required to search the vehicle or any portion of it including its passengers.

"That's why this bp agent asked for permission to search my car. And why he was never able to search my trunk following my refusal to grant permission. He was being an a**hole abusing his authority (by detaining me half an hour) when I refused his request. His actions were intentend to punish me for not voluntarily giving up my consitutional rights."

That is indeed strange to get stopped by border patrol away from the border. In any event I think what you did was excactly correct. ALWAYS refuse any search, make it VERY clear.

 

[Ashera]

Apology accepted. WITHIN the Zona?? Yes, it may be true MOST of them are about bad behavior, but from what I've seen in the posts on this website, about all of the posts regarding bad encounters with the cops are outside the ZN with the exception of the tinted window incident which technically was still an infraction. However, it almost turned into further trouble after MikeDude saw the cop's ID.

Using your previous reasoning, since I have never been mugged nor have any of my friends, it must not be as dangerous as you say. As long as you stay away from the high risk areas, stay in the light with the crowds who are also walking, keep aware of your surroundings, it is safe enough, especially during the day. But you are entitled to your opinion. As I said, I plan to use a cab now anyway--NOT because of real muggers, but because the cops are waiting to mug us at the pedestrian bridge or anywhere along the way to the border.

 

[BitterBlue]

I'll try answering Kittyfreak's questions first. Then add my own observations.

I'm in the 45+ group. I'm short, overweight, and Anglo. (This makes me an easy target.) I speak good Spanish (for a gringo) but cops and muggers wouldn't know that in advance. The amount of money I carry varries from trip to trip, but I don't flash it. I try to carry lots of one's and five's, but not in a roll. I divided it among my pockets so it doesn't look like I have a lot of cash. I always take a cab back to the border after dark, and usually take a cab both ways. I look like a middle-aged US businessman in dress and grooming. (I'm a little overdressed at times for the ZN, which might indicate I have money.) I keep a low profile, drink little or nothing, don't argue with locals, and have "normal" sexual tastes. (No underage chicas, cichachicos, etc.) I've been going to TJ for years. For the last 18 months I've averaged at least one trip a week to TJ. (While I live in So-Cal, I spend so much time in TJ that I got an apartment to save on hotel bills.)

About 7-8 pm one winter night I was stopped by the cops while walking from Tropical to Chicago Club. A very persistent street guy had been following me trying to get me to go to an MP. I kept saying "No" and it probably looked like we were talking. The cops stopped both of us. He had drugs on him--I didn't. I stood my ground and eventually was cut loose.

Another time I was driving near the Zona with my girlfriend in the early evening, shortly after dark. (I think nightfall increases the risk of problems.) I actually had pulled over and we were talking (she was crying because of problems with ex-husband.) A cop car stopped to investigate. It turned out that one of the cops was a friend of her ex-husband. He wanted to take me to the police station on a bogus charge. I refused to go. Eventually they cut me lose. For those that don't know driving while embracing a passager and/or have sex in public is illegal.

In both cases I must admit the cops had probable cause to investigate. That was all it took for them to see dollar signs. However, since I had done nothing wrong I stood my ground--respectually--untill they reallized I wasn't going to pay a bribe. Then they cut me lose.

I'm very active one of the major boards regarding mongering in TJ. A few observations based on personal conversations with TJ vets as well as the posts of others:
--Problems are rare--although, obviously not non-existent
--The pedestrian bridge is a dangerous place for tourists
--Walking back to the border after dark is dangerous
--The later it gets the more dangerous things become in TJ (like the rest of the world)
--Driving near the ZN is more dangerous than elsewhere in TJ
--Take a taxi back to the border. Have it drop you at the Lina Sentri drop off point so you avoid the pedestrian bridges. Be careful if there is a cop present when you get out of the cab. If possible, blend in with a group when walking past cops near the border.
--Sober up before hitting the border.
--Kittyfreak is right: most guys (except motorists) who have problems with the cops did something, major or minor, to cause their problems.

The further away you get from the ZN the less likely you are to have problems with the cops. This includes driving. For a while my girlfriend lived near the La Gloria road to Rosarito. I would return from seeing her between 2-4 am when I was almost the only car on the road. I used a route that kept me away from the ZN streets. Although I have US plates I never had a problem with the cops, and I saw them often. When I drive to TJ I park on 9th between Madero and Revolucion. I've never had a problem walking to my car from the ZN (and I stick to Revolucion) late at night. I take 10th Street and cross the River when driving back to the border. That way I avoid the ZN cops. So far I haven't had problems using this route; however, it is quicker and safer to take a taxi than drive.

Yes, there are corrupt cops in TJ. The ZN and Pedestrian Bridge are the places one is most likely to encounter them. However, when one considers how many gringos visit TJ without incident I think it can be honestly said that it isn't a particularly dangerous thing to do.

 

[The Paranoid Android]

iopuoyi8uoi

 

[Alexia]

I did not mean to call you (specifically) stupid. I was attempting to make a more general statement about how to avoid trouble in ZN. I feel bad that you have taken my comments personally. Actually, I respect the fact that you have taken the time to post your negative experience here for the public benefit. I am sorry that this happened to you. nobody deserves police harassment (with a few exceptions - but that's not a subject for mpnet).

I do stand by my observation (which is just my humble opinion BTW) that 99% of police encounters IN THE ZONA are attributed to bad behavior. To be fair, I could be wrong. Maybe things are changing. I can only express my opinions based on my personal experiences and information.

BTW - It is NEVER safe to walk back/forth to the border, day or night. Once you leave the area immediately in front of CC/AB, or the alley (with the SG) on the next block, you are in a very rough area and all bets are off. The neighborhood is very sketchy and bad things frequently happen there.

Get a taxi. If you are dead broke, it is possible to ask others to eforum.xxx along in their cab. I've given guys with hard luck stories rides in my cab before. Or just ask about sharing a cab (cost $2-3 bucks) in front of AB. Also, some cabbies will bargain down to as low as $3 on a slow day. There is no good reason to walk, it is just too dangerous.

 

[rmk122]

The following is a condensed account of what a very expericned TJ vet (and friend of mine) posted on TJ Amigos following an encounter with TJ cops:

=================================================

[When] I was heading home from Tijuana...I bought a bottle of antibiotics, a tube of Retin A gel, and 2 viagras.

When I got back to my car, it was blocked by a cop car.
The cops came out and asked me what I had in pockets and what did I buy.…The cops [after finding the Viagra] kept telling me that I was in very big trouble...

.......................

I was annoyed and told the cop (in Spanish), “I am not afraid of jail, I am not afraid of seeing the judge, and I am not afraid of the policemen here in this city as they are all fine people! I am in a hurry so let’s see the judge now so I can pay him the fine.”

The cop stared at me for a few moments and then said, “OK, get out of here now”.

I said, “What?”

The cop said, “This is your one warning from me. Now get out of here. Go!”

I did.

==================================================

I continue to advise those who have similar encouncters with TJ cops to stand up to them respectually and calmly. Many more times than not they will cut you lose--just as they did my friend.

 

[Hatchet Wounds]

I didn't call kittyfreak any names. It should be noted he called me "stupid" because I attempted to walk back to the border. Depending on where you walk, yes there are bad areas I wouldn't walk day or night there, but the well-traveled route is reasonably safe. You just have to know where not to go. Many of us don't go to TJ to only hit the ZN.

The one thing he did post that I agree with is about being dropped off in the taxi next to the exit side to the USA instead of on the side where you enter TJ from the USA. I posted that here http://www.worldsexguide.com/forum/showpost.php?p=94915&postcount=19

I still think he is barking up the wrong tree with some of his questions. Some of them had absolutely nothing to do with who the cops are targeting. I should admit that I assumed that traveling in groups would protect one from the cops, but apparently that isn't true as indicated by godofaccu in http://www.worldsexguide.com/forum/showpost.php?p=99339&postcount=46 where 3 guys were targeted by the cops at the pedestrian bridge. As I posted earlier, I plan to use a taxi now that the cops are mugging us on the way back to the border. So much for tourism because it will keep me from going to the other popular parts of TJ that I like to go besides ZN. By the way, have there been any reports of anyone being mugged by the cops on the way into TJ?

I agree totally with MikeDude's assessment. I'm not a newbie either. My first time across the border was over 26 years ago. I don't know how many times I've been there, but it isn't insignificant. I've also been to many other 3rd world cities in many other countries and also to poor sections of many cities of the US. I generally know how to handle myself and how to keep away from trouble.

Walking back to the border from the ZN is only a problem if you don't know what you are doing, or if you will run into the cops. As long as you are aware of your surroundings and stay away from the dark streets/alleys or other areas not well traversed and won't be surprised by someone, you can generally walk safely from the real criminals. The problem I had though was that you cannot run away or walk in a different direction from the cops. As soon as they see you and call out to stay where you are, you are toast. If they were just shady looking characters, I would have run the 2 blocks back down the hill to the crowds at the ZN where a crook wouldn't try to mug me. But you cannot run from the cops, or you will compound the problem. So sure, you can take a taxi to/from each location in TJ. It will mean I will only go to TJ in the future to go just to the ZN now.

 

[}{acker Pro]

Jeremy...you're half right. A search warrent isn't needed when you return to the US. However, it is needed even if you are in the proximity of the border if you haven't crossed the border. This, however, is not relevent to what happened as I wasn't near the border.

I was on a highway several miles from the border; I was headed towards Mexico and was not re-entering the US. A warrant was needed to search my car without my permission and probable cause was needed to stop me.

That's why this bp agent asked for permission to search my car. And why he was never able to search my trunk following my refusal to grant permission. He was being an a**hole abusing his authority (by detaining me half an hour) when I refused his request. His actions were intentend to punish me for not voluntarily giving up my consitutional rights.

 

[FaithM]

I have gone to TJ and Ensenada over a 20 year period probably 50 times collectively. I don't at all doubt any of the stories above. However, I don't understand why anyone would drive there (except to Ensenada). Why not just park at the border and take a taxi to wherever you are going? When you get done wherever you are, take a taxi back to the border.

I think also, other than ID to get back across the border, I only bring a limited amount of money that you would be willing to lose. Should the cops detain you (which has ONLY happened to me when I have brought attention to myself and very rarely), they only want your money and once they have it, will let you go.

I do find it amusing that Vincente Fox claims corruption has been largely wiped out in his tenure and demands an open border with the U.S. Fucking laughable. Mexico would be so much better off economically if it wasn't so corrupt.

 

[tehabwa]

We all know that lightening strikes and some people do get killed even though the chance of it happening to you is like 10 million to 1. People get killed in car accicent every day but we all think it will never happen to us because we drive safe and always aware of our surroundings. For those of you who have never had encounters with crooked TJ cops, consider yourself lucky and try to keep that luck going because you will need it in TJ. Yes, you can keep low profile, dress neat, never act out of line while in TJ, but in the end, you have to keep in mind that there do exist corrupt cops who are determined to make fast bucks off of gringos. Personally, I dress neat, hardly drink in TJ because I need to drive, and very friendly to the local people often giving money to those poor beggars in the street. I also don't have physical stature that will give out a sign of being an easy prey.

These cops in my mind are not singling out any particular race or type, but they seem to have one particular target. Guys traveling alone in remote areas where not many people are present. Yes, it is possible to never have problems with TJ cops if you travel in a group on foot. This is the only protection you have in TJ. For guys like me who drive into TJ, it is really asking for trouble. It's really an irony when you think about it. Guys who go to TJ alone are usually veterans because they know their ways around the city and yet they are the ones who are at higher risk. I've been frequenting TJ for more than 10 years and I go there about 2 to 3 times a month. I am not exactly what you would call a newbie. Hell, I just went last night DRIVING again with my TINTED WINDOWED car.

The area where action is happening is actually about 2 block radius in each direction: Chicago Club, Adelita, Hong Kong and other smaller bars in between. And yet with the amount of police presence in that area, a first time visitor might think there is a major terror alert in there. You got police in uniforms, guys in t-shirt with the word Policia on the back, police mini vans, trucks and regular patrol cars all driving around in that small two to three block areas, not to mention a police station right in the middle of the location. In my long years of visiting TJ, I have never seen a guy or guys from the states misbehave and cause enough trouble to get arrested. We all know we are in a foreign country with different laws so all of us keep low profile and try to fly under the radar.

Driving back home at around 1:30 AM, I saw some interesting patterns. When it's getting late, the patrol cars change their route, driving around the areas where guys from the states have to get through to take the road(highway) to head to the border. This is the remote area behind Chicago Club and very dark with not many people around. Again, like last time I was there, there were three patrol cars giving some poor dudes from the states hard time. The word is probably out among TJ police force that they can retire in 10 years if they work in TJ. I would refrain from driving to TJ for a while. It must be a gold rush period in TJ.

 

[Ellen]

"Don't get intimitated by the TJ cops, but do not give them a hard time either, you will lose. If you are doing nothing wrong, and have nothing illegal on you, i.e. ANY medication of any type, ANYTHING that could be construed as a weapon(knife, bullet on a key chain, pepper spray, etc.), then stand your ground, and don't give them any money at all. If they take all or part of your money, don't argue or fight about it, after you are released, go to the nearest phone and call 078 or 066 and tell them you were just robbed of some cash by some cops, and you want a supervisor. Things may get a little intense, but remain calm, don't use any bad language at all for any reason, and never, never belittle a police officer in front of any other police officer. If you do, you just fucked yourself. Be prepared to give a badge number, car/truck number and a description of the officer. They will immediately come right out to your location, and go look for the cop that burned you.
On the other side, you risk reprisal the next time you are in TJ if you are in a dark isolated place, and are recognized by one of his compadres. There are bodies found in TJ all the time, so use your common sense and be safe."

Very wise council. I have been to TJ and various places in Baja countless times, have had various run-ins with the cops, and what he says is precisely correct. Be humble, friendly and VERY apologetic, and probably at worse they will shake you down for some money. Tell them you come to Mexico because it is such a great country, much better than the USA, blah, blah ... Show any attitude, and you could be in deep trouble. Also, I have heard that the American embassy will do very little for you if you are in jail and your attorney, if you can afford one, will probably work with the prosecutor to steal your money. If you go during the day, you will reduce the chances of having something bad happen.

My various police encounters:

1) Walking around in public places with a beer in my hand ... cost $20 bribe. He then gave me my beer back, I walked 100 feet and another policeman materialized out of nowhere, very stupid on my part, and cost me another $20. Realizing my luck was bad that night, I turned around and went home.

2) Driving somewhat recklessly on the free road between TJ and Ensenada (actually we saw some hot senoritas and shot a U turn and went back to talk with them but they had just left). Cop came out of nowhere and pulled me over, mean looking SOB with a beard. I started speaking to him in Spanish and he cut me off. "You got drugs in car?" "No, sir." "Let me see your wallet." "Yes, sir (thinking he would clean it out)". He searched it and our bags and then gave up, I very much expected him to plant something. He said "Be good" and left.

3) Pissing on a wall, cost me $30 and a stern lecture about respecting Mexico.

4) Being in a bar where a fight broke out. Cost me $10 to leave after the cops came in.

5) Strangest story - Once I was in Ensenada drinking heavily with a girl I had been dating only a short time, a very pretty but high strung petite blonde. I hadn't shagged her yet and was getting her nice and wasted for what would hopefully be a nice session back in our hotel room. Although I doubt she weighed more than 110 pounds, she was really putting it away, I was amazed, keeping up with me drink by drink, shot by shot. We wound up back at our room and she was pretty hammered. I got all of her clothes off and was about to nail her and then realized that I left my fucking condoms in my car (rookie move). I put on my shorts, ran downstairs, grabbed my rubbers and ran back in the room trying to revive the moment. I got her all hot and bothered again, had the condom on, just about to penetrate her and there was a bang on the door. What the fuck? I looked through the security door and the night watchman was there with a cop. Couldn't believe it. "Uno momento" and told her to get dressed fast... they start banging on the door really hard and I opened it. "You bring prostitute to your room?" I couldn't believe it. "No senor, ella es mi novia/no sir, she's my GF". My date was cowering beneath the covers and I told her to show her face and they could see was an American. The nightwatchman was clearly embarrassed and asked why I had ran "very fast" to my car and back. I told him "because I needed this" and showed him my condoms. He and the cops apologized and left. It completely fucked up the evening, my date then didn't want to have sex and I never did shag her as we had some big fight the next day with our bad hangovers and didn't go out much after that.

So why did I used to go there (I don't much anymore)? Drinks and women. I've had a lot of good times there with both senoritas and very drunk American college girls.

However, to show you what scum the TJ cops can be and why you shouldn't bring your Gfs, wives or daughters to TJ:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/20031119-1625-mexico-policearrested.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1043771/posts

http://orion.csuchico.edu/Pages/vol40issue7/d.mexico.html

 

[BuStErBaBy]

Whatever... I know I am barking up the right tree. 12 years of TJ experience, buddy. I've seen it all in that place. I remember when the alley was actually a dangerous fucking place in the 90s. it is not dangerous today. As far as personal attacks on me. Is name calling your best response when logic fails you? If so, you are a just a silly bitch. Get a life. I'm not the one getting piched by crooked cops in TJ. I have at least 200 TJ trips under my belt and have never even talked to a cop. I'm trying to help you, or at least anyone intelligent enough to pay attention to good advice.

Anyways, anyone stupid enough to walk from the border to Revoluccion or ZN is asking for it, day or night. Is saving $10 on cab fare to walk through one of the worst neighborhoods in this hemisphere really worth it? I think not. Catch a cab. And do not carry more money than you need. I never bring more than $200 to the ZN. I leave with little more than cab fare in my pocket (2 WG =$140 + cab fare = $10 + 2 beers/2 girl drinks = $25, grand total = $175). That way, even if I get ripped off by anyone I do not stand to lose much anyways. However that has never happened to me. Just luck, you say? I doubt it. I am not the luckiest guy in the world and I generally go there alone, often at night. I just use extreme caution, stay aware of my surroundings, and keep a low profile. Enough of this thread, this is getting pretty lame. Good luck fellas!

Tip to the wise: get you cabbie to drop you off closer to the border. he can drop you at the sidewalk leading to the border, making that bridge crossing unnecessary. I haven't walked that border bridge in 10 years.

 

[Monique]

I went to TJ twice or three times since the last time I posted. No probs with the Mexican cops. Hmm....

 

[Zippi]

OK all,

Just got back from TJ, and copwise, I definitely see alot more then there used to be in previous years. It seems like they are everywhere around la zona roja, walking sitting in front of the bars, in squad cars etc. For the most part, they have not SEEMED crooked to me. They know exactly what is going on all around and seem like they generally just want to keep the peace...or so I thought.

After my adventuring from 7pm-11pm, (I'll post the details in appropriate forum), I hop a cab and head to the border. Cab drops me off at the usual spot, but a little bit further down than usual and I notice that it's dark as hell. I seriously don't remember it being like that.

Anyway, I hop out the cab, start walking, and notice up ahead in the shadows 3 shady looking cops (they were hiding in the shadows...how much more shady can you get?) Lucky for me, after I take a few steps, they are getting happy and pointing up at the pedestrian bridge. They excitedly start getting into position to ambush somebody approaching.

I look and see 3 harmless looking wigger guys (hats turned sideways and all) around 19-22 yo walking minding their own business down the bridge. They were not intoxicated looking (I am sure they were though) they weren't smoking blunts and holding pistols, and they weren't burning MExican flags and chanting "F*** Mexico". They looked like normal guys. If anything, they were probably a bit on the dorky side, and obviously easy pickings.

Anyway, the cops run up "come over here!" surround them (3 on 3) and force them against the wall and start punking them for IDs and such. The poor wiggers were pissing their pants, and knew they were a$$ed out.Thats about all I caught as I walked by. I felt sorry for the shmucks, but, alone, unarmed and in a foreign country, I wasn't in any position to do jack for them.

I was wondering if the cops were even REAL, since from what I had seen in the Zona, cops tended to walk around in pairs, NOT trios. I keep walking and about 30 ft ahead, right before the entrance to the immigration checkpoint, was ANOTHER cop, solitary. I doubt him ant the group were BOTH fake cops. And if ONE of those groups was fake, they would have done something about the other. So from that deduction, I have to assume that the solitary cop, and the 3 stooges are both REAL cops... maybe off duty or something?

Just from their attitude I could tell they were crooked. The glee they had in their eyes and voices at spotting their marks, and then their quick flip to wannabe Terminators as they tried to intimidate and interrogate their victims, did not seem the actions of good and honest police.

I'm thinking it was this same group that got Warren, along with a couple of other buddies, maybe. It sucks that with all the improvements they are making to TJ ... for those of you who don't know, it used to be a REAL hellhole... and the added attempts at order, that there is probably a small group of @$$holes ruining TJ's image.

If somebody is in the position of reporting this to the proper authorities, please do so. I suspect they are doing this to many many other innocent people, jacking their money, and getting away with it. They need to be stopped.

 

[imamidnightlover]

I believe there was a general attempt in Tiajuana in the 90s to make things more tourist-friendly, and to efface the image of corrupt cops that had been so prevalent in the States, and maybe things are going in the other direction, somewhat. I've only had one encounter with TJ cops. My stepmother (who is Mexican) and my father have a house on the beach in San Antonio del Mar (just north of Rosarito). I drove down there with some friends, and one night we went to a club in Tiajuana. It was a pretty low-key evening, and nobody was drunk or misbehaving, and we decided to go back to the house early. Just as we pulled onto the main highway going south, a cop car pulled us over. He said we ran a stop sign, which was completely untrue. Then he said our designated driver was under the influence, which was also untrue. He then said we could pay the "fine" to him, but we refused. Then he said we'd have to go to the station to see the "commandant," and so we said "Okay, let's go." He said we were to follow him there, and he went off, but after a few blocks he just drove away.

End result: no bribe/fine, no judge, no nada.

I've gone to the ZN dozens of times, always alone, often at night. I always walk, and I've never had a problem. Maybe things are getting worse now, I don't know. It's hard to tell from anectdotal accounts.

 

[mixermatt2002]

How many posts does it take to convince you that the cops in TJ are probably the ones leaving those bodies Warren mentioned? Some of the supervisors are in on it too. MikeDude had one over on this corrupt cop this time. Congrats MikeDude!

 

[astutewoman]

opiujhiohohi

 

[Pompal 09.]

You got it man.
They don't need a reason. Kittyfreak with all his questions isn't interested in corruption as much as he is interested in choking his chicken to any of you who answer on whether you've taken a "dildo up your ass", etc. What in the hell does that have to do with corruption!

Kitty freak not only are you a sick fuck but you are full of shit as well.

I think I smell a fag Cali ZX

 

[:.Jamie.:]

$3000 a week for an SG is definitely a misprint. 3000 mexican pesos is more like it.

Last Thursday in TJ, interestingly, I ran into the same asshole cop that made me start this thread. This time, I was walking instead of driving. I was walking up the hill to go to Aztec massage(by the way, if you haven't tried Aztec massage, go and try. It's the best massage place in TJ in my opinion. There is no sex though, just massage). As I was turning the street corner, I heard someone say "wuh, wuh, stop !"
I turned to look and there he was, the son of a bitch. Even though I was annoyed at the fact that there was no reason for thim to stop me, this time, I immediately acted like we are best friends.

SOB : Where are you going ?
Me : I am going to Aztec massage.
SOB : When was the last time you were here ?
Me : Two weeks ago.
Me : Wait... Hey I know you.
SOB : Really ?
Me : Yeah, you stopped me before for having tinted windows and I paid 100 dollars fine. Remember ?
SOB : Uuh... I stop many cars, which car ?
Me : Black BMW.
SOB : ........ ( thinking )
SOB : ........ ( more thinking )
Me : (smiling)
SOB: Okay, stay in this area, okay ?
Me : Gracias amigo.


There, I was able to get out of the shithole situation unscathed this time.
So, I gather it's probably same group of corrupt cops who is giving hard time to gringos. I know you are guilty until proven innocent in mexico, so probably, it's legal for the cops to stop and search anyone without a reason ? I mean, I was neatly dressed, not-drunk and I was in open space with many other pedestrians and still this guy stopped me just because I didn't look mexican.

 

[Pompal 09.]

I agree with Jeremy. Unless Burt left something out of his story, the Border Patrol was doing exactly what their job description says. I'm surprised they let Burt go.